tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1948420587779787298.post3124275599679447608..comments2023-06-16T05:25:55.741-07:00Comments on Elliptica: Infidels Have Dreams, Too.Lynethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06357023675142716573noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1948420587779787298.post-56500461621811329982007-09-20T05:31:00.000-07:002007-09-20T05:31:00.000-07:00Thanks, that was a great post.Thanks, that was a great post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1948420587779787298.post-86501685348786731872007-09-04T02:33:00.000-07:002007-09-04T02:33:00.000-07:00Thanks, all of you! In writing such a personal st...Thanks, all of you! In writing such a personal story, I couldn't be sure I wasn't being self-indulgent, so I'm grateful for responses that suggest otherwise :-)<BR/><BR/>And yes, C.L. has been explaining this beautifully for me, but basically the idea that not believing is the (one) unforgivable sin comes from the idea that if you don't believe you'll receive the maximum possible punishment that anyone could possibly give you, whereas otherwise you'll get off scot-free. The idea that we all deserve maximum punishment and some of us just get a reprieve is quite naturally counterintuitive (read: stupid).Lynethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06357023675142716573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1948420587779787298.post-18370940189638192342007-09-02T03:15:00.000-07:002007-09-02T03:15:00.000-07:00This is a brilliant post to read! I'm so glad I ca...This is a brilliant post to read! I'm so glad I came across it. So well written and moving.<BR/><BR/>Someone I know turned down being with the person they loved because they couldn't just choose to believe. At the time I was a believer and thought he should give it a chance, but he was right not to yield to the ultimatum.<BR/><BR/>He was true to himself, even if it meant losing love. Surely, a true god wouldn't ask that sacrifice, and even if one exists, it would respect such a choice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1948420587779787298.post-31301767835446408902007-08-28T06:07:00.000-07:002007-08-28T06:07:00.000-07:00I find the conversion process a fascinating phenom...I find the conversion process a fascinating phenomenon. <BR/><BR/>As children, it's quite natural for us to fall into logical fallacies and replace the "actual" for the "hoped for." Hell, we loved magic as kids, did we not? Even when we got older and knew magic wasn't "true," we wanted to "figure it out." <BR/><BR/>Those who go through this deconstructive conversion process, on the other hand, perceive themselves as losing more than just childhood fantasy. Many people see themselves losing purpose, morals, and structure. Like you said, it can be a very terrifying existential process, but it is more than rewarding.Kellygorskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07757767910101757133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1948420587779787298.post-10122901976061410862007-08-26T00:42:00.000-07:002007-08-26T00:42:00.000-07:00Hi L.L. Barkat,I'm not surprised if you see sin di...Hi L.L. Barkat,<BR/><BR/>I'm not surprised if you see sin differently than some Christians do. It's clear (from a quick trip around the Internet, if nothing else) that Christians vary widely in their beliefs, particularly regarding sin and salvation. Those Christians who make friendly conversation on atheist blogs tend to lean in the peace-and-love direction, which is good. I've talked about some reasons for making cross-belief political alliances <A HREF="http://lfab-uvm.blogspot.com/2007/06/is-religion-problem.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/><BR/>In Mormonism, the precise belief about unbelief is a little tricky to pin down. Accodring to LDS doctrine you have to believe in Mormonism to reach the highest degree of exaltation, which naturally indicates that unbelief must be something like a sin. (Note that that's far from being the only condition for exaltation.) However it might be more accurate to say that Mormons belive that unbelief is caused by sin rather than to say they believe that it is itself a sin.<BR/><BR/>This isn't just from my own sub-community: Mormon belief tends to be fairly homogeneous, though they make a distinction between actual doctrine and "folk doctrine". Beliefs regarding the connections between unbelief and sin probably trace back to talks from General Conference. There might be some related Biblical passages, but not necessarily.C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1948420587779787298.post-44864488648073848272007-08-24T16:03:00.000-07:002007-08-24T16:03:00.000-07:00Hi there, c.l. Good to meet you here at Lynet's pl...Hi there, c.l. Good to meet you here at Lynet's place.<BR/><BR/>It's funny, though I'm a Christian, I've never thought as unbelief as a sin. To me, sins are those things that trespass others, or the self, or the world... in purposeful harm or damaging disregard. But belief, like love, it strikes me, is not a right or wrong thing. It is more of a relational thing. If I believe in you (or God), then I have connection to you (or God), but if I don't, then we live apart. Is there some kind of biblical discussion that leads the Mormon community to see unbelief as sin? Or was this unique to your community perhaps, as some kind of teaching tradition?L.L. Barkathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13333960142447144678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1948420587779787298.post-70801671934287288912007-08-24T00:57:00.000-07:002007-08-24T00:57:00.000-07:00Wow, that's quite a moving story!!! Not just as a...Wow, that's quite a moving story!!! Not just as a deconversion story but as a story of the heartbreak of impossible love.<BR/><BR/>Like you, my own deconversion was the result of realizing that spiritual witness/feelings can't be trusted as a means to determine factual information. It was the key to my <A HREF="http://lfab-uvm.blogspot.com/2006/07/my-deconversion-part-3-tipping-point.html" REL="nofollow">deconversion from Mormonism</A> when I realized that spiritual witness was confirming different "truths" to different people, and -- like you -- my own personal spiritual experience led me to stop believing in God altogether: <A HREF="http://lfab-uvm.blogspot.com/2007/05/how-i-became-atheist.html" REL="nofollow">How I became an atheist</A>.<BR/><BR/>In response to L. L. Barkat's curiosity reagarding how unbelief can be a sin: It's true that one religion's tenets generally seem incomprehensible to the adherents of other religions. In Mormon terms, entertaining your doubts (contemplating them, researching them) instead of chasing them away with prayer is seen as a sin because bad thoughts and reading the wrong type of materials are seen as -- quite literally -- a means for inviting Satan into your heart and making the Holy Ghost leave you. Thus if you're led to the "wrong" conclusions, it's the fault of your own weaknesses (such as intellectual pride and the like) that put you under the control of Satan.<BR/><BR/>Even in mainstream Christianity unbelief is an unforgivable sin. If the one thing you need to do in order to be "saved" is to believe in Jesus, then it follows that unbelief (in Jesus) is the unforgivable sin. I think Lynet will agree that it is the contrapositive: (you believe in Jesus => you're saved) <==> (you're not saved => you don't believe in Jesus). The only remaining questions are semantics (saving vs. forgiving, believing vs. accepting as savior, etc.)C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1948420587779787298.post-22282326866345338152007-08-22T11:40:00.000-07:002007-08-22T11:40:00.000-07:00I love how you think. Though it leads us to differ...I love how you think. Though it leads us to different conclusions. Still, I love how you think.<BR/><BR/>It seemed curious to me to consider unbelief as a sin. And an unforgivable sin at that. I'm trying to translate that into human experience... what does it mean if you don't "believe in me", how does this affect us as two people, and would there be something unforgivable about that? Or would it instead be a chasm, a sorrow, an opportunity that continued to exist only in its potential... thus, an ache, a hope deferred?L.L. Barkathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13333960142447144678noreply@blogger.com